The Creative Act a way of being Part 1 | The You Belong Podcast

In the next few episodes we are going to dive into the incredible book The Creative Act: a Way of Being by Rick Rubin. As photographers it is easy to call ourselves creatives, but do we really know the depths of what that means. In Rick’s book he covers 78 different topics about the creative. How to know it, how to channel it, how to attract it, how to utilize it, and so on. This is Part 1 of a 4 part series of diving deep into living a creative life by Rick Rubin’s words. So worth the time to listen for anyone wanting to live a truly creative life.

---

alison the creative path 1 (00:01.418)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the You Belong Podcast. Today, I want to talk about the book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being by Rick Rubin. So this book is 70 something odd, very short, usually about two and a half pages, thoughts on creativity. And all of it is amazing.

All of it is really pertinent to creatives and I felt like this would be such an amazing thing to dive into together on the podcast. So I'll be doing a series on this book and would love to hear your feedback at the end. So if you will listen to this, let me know your thoughts on creativity, if it was helpful for you or not. So let's dive in. So.

Rick opens up talking about everyone is a creator. And I know a lot of people don't believe this or feel this way. I mean, I have family members who are amazed with the work that I create, which I find kind of funny because I'm not that amazing. I don't think I am. And they don't feel that they could ever do something like that. And I think the point is, is that

with Rick's thought is that creativity isn't just art. Creativity is in being able to solve a solution to a problem, to find a new way to drive home, to come up with a chore chart for your kids, or all this act of just creating something, not the act of being an artist necessarily, but that everyone...

is a creator. We are all creating lives that we live in. So I thought that was really awesome. He says to create is to bring something into existence that wasn't there before. Even a conversation that is creating something and it is all fulfilling. Something that he talks about is that we are to be able to be creatives.

alison the creative path 1 (02:26.87)

we have to tune in to the universe. And this seems a little woo wooey, but I'm a little woo wooey. And I believe in this 100%. So I wanted to read, this is on page 95. He says, our work embodies a higher purpose. Whether we know it or not, we're a conduit for the universe. Material is allowed through us. If we are a clear channel, our intention reflects the intentions of the cosmos.

Most creators think of themselves as the conductor of the orchestra. If we zoom out of our small view of reality, we function more as an instrumentalist in a much larger symphony the universe is orchestrating. We may not have a great understanding of what this magnum opus is because we only see the small part we play. And as I totally think this is true. Um,

We live in this world where we think we get very small-minded. Our lives get very small because it's hard. We have a lot of things that we have to do in a day, a lot of responsibilities. And so it zooms in really tight to what we are needing to do in the day, what our life is like, our problems. But when you create, it's something outside of yourself. It is this much bigger...

than you thing and it is a connection to the universe, a connection to humanity and I just love that view of it. We all have the ability to be creatives like he said and to be able to do that we have to tune in to creativity through the universe and he calls it the source. It doesn't

is like a cloud. Let me read on page 14.

alison the creative path 1 (04:34.358)

He says, it may be helpful to think of source as a cloud. Clouds never truly disappear, they change form. They turn into rain and become part of the ocean and then evaporate and return to being clouds. The same is true of art. Art is a circulation of energetic ideas. What makes them appear new is that they're combining differently each time they come back. No two clouds are the same. If you have read Big Magic, it

she talks, I forget the author of that, I'll have to reference it in the show notes. She talks about this same thing, that creative energy is out there in the universe. It isn't ours, it doesn't belong to us, it is this universal energy and when something needs to be created, it tries to find a vessel to create it in and that person can create for it to have it come to fruition and if that

person isn't receptive to that creative energy, to the source, as Rick calls it, then it will move on to find another person to be able to create this. She talks about it in the book that she had this idea for a book and she never got around to writing it. And then a couple of years later, a friend of hers came to her and said, hey, I've been writing this book. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. And it was the exact same.

idea for the book that she had years before but never wrote it. It was mind-blowing to her that this creative energy, this source came to her first but she didn't listen and it wanted to be made so it jumped to a different antenna as creative artists and our antennas to be able to be received and then become real and in real life. So how

Do we tune in our antennas to the source? How can we be in tune with the universe and tune with the source and tune with this creative energy so we can create big magic like the book is called, create these amazing things? The first thing that Rick talks about is your awareness. And this...

alison the creative path 1 (06:58.254)

is not a new idea by any means, especially recently, the idea of meditation, presence, awareness is really big. Everybody is in it or has participated in it in some way somehow. And he talks about experiencing the world without judgment or control, that awareness cannot be forced, only practice and persistence is key.

in tuning into the source. We cannot change what we notice, but how we notice it. And he says, the universe is only as large as our perception of it. When we cultivate our awareness, we are expanding the universe. So during COVID, I took a meditation class because COVID sucked and I was trying really hard to get through it. And I was having a bit of an emotional distress. So I knew that meditation had all these benefits.

and I won't go into any of that, but the thing that this meditation coach taught me was so interesting that you need to be present, which everybody knows, but to be non-judgmental of the present. At the time I was having significant health issues, I was in pain, I was dizzy, I was nauseous constantly, and I did not.

want to be in my present. I want it out of my present. So freaking bad. And to be able to sit with yourself non-judgmentally and allow whatever is happening to happen was very difficult. And hopefully it's not as difficult for you. Hopefully your situation isn't as uncomfortable as mine was, but to sit in here and now. So like, for instance, me, I'm sitting here with a podcast

In front of me it's recording. It's very, very quiet. And I would just need to let the day happen for a few minutes and just notice it. But whatever comes up, whatever thoughts or feelings or sensations come, I don't judge them. I'm more curious about it. And just let them, the energy flow through me. And then if it wants to leave, let it leave.

alison the creative path 1 (09:26.526)

and let whatever else needs to come in. And Rick is talking about the source and being able to tune into it like an antenna like that. So if these creative ideas or thoughts or feelings come to you that you aren't too busy, that life isn't too loud, that you wouldn't be able to hear the source speaking to you. Man, does that sound really spiritually out there. But it's so true.

So the next thing he talks about is the vessel, the vessel within us, which gets filled up with all the information coming at us every single day. It's a lot, and we all have...

We all have a filtration system. Because there is so much information coming at us, there's no way we can process all of the stimulation, all of the information, all of the energy that's coming at us. So from a very young age, we've learned to tune stuff out, things that we don't feel are pertinent or important or part of our survival or interesting. And the filter that we have for our vessel

needs to change so the source can come into our vessel. So we talked about non-judgment and being in the present moment. Something that he talks about is that we need to revert, even taking that idea farther, is reverting it into a childlike state. This newness

experiencing it without judgment but curiosity as a child.

alison the creative path 1 (11:18.318)

So we need to let go of opinions, things that we find are truth already, things that we think are lies already, cultural things that we may have learned that could inhibit our curiosity for the source. Instead, we wanna hold that information softly, non-judgmentally, and the more raw data we take in and the less we shape it,

the closer we get to the source. And the end byproduct of that is art. The tangible isn't.

I'll send you need to edit this part out. What you just said before the sentence.

So it's a really interesting way of changing our mindset around our day, non-judgmentally curiosity and presence, which has a lot of other benefits besides tuning into the energetic source. If you wanna dive into meditation more, maybe we need to do that in a different podcast, but it has a lot of other amazing benefits to it.

Something else that Rick talks about, like I said, there's a lot of different itty bits of this book. It's just itty bits put together. The next thing that he talks about that I found was very interesting and worthwhile talking about is the end byproduct of art. So we live in this world that is produce, right? We need so much content.

alison the creative path 1 (12:53.778)

If you're a photographer, you need content, content all the time. Content for social media, content for newsletters, content for websites. If you're an influencer, that's your life. Your life is content. It's just so much creating for content. But the end by product, Rick says, the tangible, the content, the photograph, the book, the essay, the...

I don't know, painting, whatever you're creating, the craft that you're creating isn't the point. Did you hear me? It isn't the point. That's not the point of creating, but the act of creation for creating sake.

alison the creative path 1 (13:42.358)

How do you feel about that? The act of creating can transcend us. We've all heard of flow and I bet you've been in a flow state. So for me, when I get into a flow state, I lose all track of time. I don't really hear anything. I'm just doing my thing and I'm so engrossed in it that I am in my own world. I'm in my own bubble, in this.

flow state and it just really great things are coming out of me and these ideas or production or whatever that I'm doing is this act of creating feels amazing. And if you've been in that flow state, I know you feel the same way that it was incredible that you would love to have that more often. It doesn't come all the time, but when it does come, it's amazing. And Rick calls it transcendent.

I love that word, because it does. It takes you to a different level. It takes you to a different place. It takes you to amazingness that you didn't know that you were able to do if you've never been in that flow state before.

alison the creative path 1 (14:58.15)

He even talks about it like the word transcendent, that it's like this spirituality. And if you're talking about the source and the universe and that you're a vessel, that is definitely ties into this spirituality part of things. I want to read the last paragraph of page 33.

alison the creative path 1 (15:26.33)

If a piece of work, a fragment of consciousness, or an element of nature is something allowing us to access something bigger, that is its spiritual component made manifest. It awards us a glimpse of the unseen. So creating for the act of creation's sake, to be able to transcend into that spirituality, into that place of flow, into that...

feeling of amazingness is the real reason for becoming an artist, for creating. It's not the end byproduct. That is a really great part of it, but it's not the true purpose of being an artist. So how can we perpetuate this

flow state, being more in tune with our source. We talked about meditation. Rick also talks about, there's so many different practices and it really depends on who you are and what your personality is like and what your needs are like and how your brain functions. So we talked about meditation. Another thing that I do is journaling. Everybody has heard of the artist's way and this daily journal thing. I call it word vomit, which is a very pretty term, but.

sitting down and just writing whatever the heck comes out of your brain. I do 20 minutes and just writing it out. My creative ideas don't usually come to me in that way. Sometimes I'll get a really profound thought when I do my creative, when I do my journaling. But what it honestly does is it just kind of empties out my brain or brains, some people's brains, at least mine is very busy, is very loud in there. And this is a way for everybody to have

and it gets out of the way so that I can tune in more conscientiously to my presence and try to find the source and that creativity. For some people it's prayer, it could be just coffee by the window and or outside if it's nice enough, just sitting in the quiet. So for some people it's exercise, hiking or running or...

alison the creative path 1 (17:48.866)

being in nature, gardening, I love gardening, that's another great one. So he talks about, you know, goes into this idea of being able to tune into the source through these different practices and to have it as a habit, to do it daily. And then also being okay with the practice needing to change. If this practice isn't serving you, if it isn't helping you tap into the source the way that you are wanting to change up the habit.

So you're able to do that.

alison the creative path 1 (18:27.082)

Another idea he has is to...

alison the creative path 1 (18:33.938)

immerse yourself in the great works. This is not a new idea. A lot of these aren't new ideas, but this one definitely isn't a new idea. I grew up where you go to college and you learn all these different things. It's not as in fashion anymore to do this, but to learn the greats. And I was a humanities person and I loved it. I loved learning about art and reading different books and music and submerging myself in

other great artists greatness. And that can be different for everybody. It doesn't necessarily have to be like New York Times list of the 25 most influential books ever. It can be just interests that you have and find the greats of those interests. So immersing yourself in beautiful works from other people.

The point of this is not to mimic the works. This is something that's very interesting. So I'm sure you guys have all heard that there is no new ideas, only recycled. And I believe there's a lot of validity to that, but I don't think people go, well, the majority of artists don't go out into the world trying to mimic things. I wanna tell you a quick story.

So my brother is a photographer, he's an architecture photographer, and he also is a teacher at a college for photography. And his birthday was just recently, and I gave him a book, an art book, and he was like, oh, I love this artist so much. And he was a great influence for me for my master's thesis. And I own one of the pictures from his master's thesis. And when I looked at the artist's book, and then I was...

realized that this giant photograph in my house is completely influenced by this artist. It just, I did not put two and two together until he told me that. And he got to this point where he realized that his work was looking so much like this artist that he completely revamped his style because he didn't want to copy.

alison the creative path 1 (20:50.154)

So we may not realize that we're being heavily influenced by artists and that's okay if you are, but to be conscientious of not copying, to be the idea for submersing yourself in greatness is to see true beauty, see the really beautiful things that the source and the artist has worked together to create nature.

Nature is a great teacher. It is the greatest work ever. Mother nature has made the most beautiful, wonderful things. There are colors that panetone cannot generate that the natural world has. It's so deep, it's so expansive, and it has so much to teach us. Being in nature, deepening our connection to nature will serve our spirit and what serves our spirit in...

variably serves our artist output. That is a quote from Rick. I don't need to say more about that. The beach, forests, deserts, whatever your personal feeling is called to nature, even if you don't if you live in a city, just being outside and or bringing nature inside, having plants in your house. I

I'm kind of a plant lady as you can see behind me. Having nature, being close to nature is a great way to connect to your creativity and the source. All right.

Um, a couple more things he talked about.

alison the creative path 1 (22:34.674)

A way to find the source is memories and the subconscious or dreams. I find this very interesting. I'm not really a dream person and if I do have dreams, they're not really fun. So this is something I would love to work on. He talks about having a dream journal. And

waking up and writing down what you just dreamt of. And the more you do that, the more that you'll remember your dreams and that this is a way to connect to the source in your creativity. He says the psyche has an admittance to a universal wisdom deeper than what we can come up with within our conscious mind. It provides a far less limited view. And that is so true. In our reality, we have rules that we have to follow. Physics.

gravity, cultural rules, monetary rules. And in the dream world, inside of our brain, there are no rules whatsoever. And in the creative world, whatever you can imagine is fair game. And I love that within our brains, within ourselves is this unlimitedness. It's so exciting to think about this, that inside of us is unlimited potential. And we can find that.

He also talks about in the early morning, I will, okay, I'll send remove that sentence.

I don't know if you've heard of this. Also another thing about dream state and when you're waking up that in between, it's kind of Peter Pan-y. I just thought of that. Tinkerbell says he'll always be that special place in between asleep and awake. And it is, it's true, it's magical. That's very Peter Pan that anything is possible in that space. Another thing I've heard of is that in the early morning is when the veil is the thinnest. And so these creative energies can flow into us. Maybe it's because it's

alison the creative path 1 (24:35.138)

It's quiet, it's dark, you're alone with your thoughts, but that creativity can kind of just flow into you, that source can flow into you with these special ideas. Last thing is setting. The setting is finding the best environment to create a clear channel is completely personal. So for some it may be complete isolation. It might be complete isolation.

in nature, it might be complete isolation in your home or your studio, it could be complete silence or it could be completely chaotic and busy like if you place yourself in a very busy place inside the city or at the park or wherever you feel comfortable and can be able to tune in to the

alison the creative path 1 (25:34.434)

helps to realize that it is better to follow the universe than those around you. Don't, okay, we're gonna take out that last sentence, Alison.

So this is just the beginning taste of this amazing book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. I highly recommend it. I think there's 78 different little tiny chapters and topics that, and I'm not gonna cover everything, but I wanted to do this podcast since we're all creatives to dive into our creativity and to understand creativity better.

Like we all want to make, but why and how? And I would, this podcast is diving into that more and more and more. And I hope you enjoyed it. If you did enjoy it, please share this, share it on your social media, leave me a review, I'm share it with your friends and family or your email news list. It would make my day and my...

world so much bigger and expansive to have more people listen to this podcast and grow this community where every creative, every photographer belongs. So thank you so much for being here and thank you for being you.

Why Write, with Rachel larsen Weaver, You Belong Podcast

Summary

In this conversation, Alison Hatch interviews Rachel Larsen-Weaver about the importance of writing in a creative practice. They discuss how writing can enhance photography and other artistic mediums, and how to incorporate writing into daily life. Rachel shares her journey of how she got into writing and the interplay between writing and photography in her own work. They also talk about Rachel's writing workshop and the benefits of participating in a safe and supportive writing community. The conversation highlights the value of exploring personal obsessions in writing and the impact of different skill levels in a learning environment.

Takeaways

Writing can enhance and expand a creative practice, including photography.

Incorporating writing into daily life can provide a therapeutic and meditative outlet.

Exploring personal obsessions in writing can lead to new insights and creative growth.

Participating in a writing workshop can provide a safe and supportive space for sharing and receiving feedback.

Learning from individuals with different skill levels can enhance one's own creative journey.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

06:24 The Importance of Writing in a Creative Practice

12:54 Incorporating Writing into Daily Life

19:22 Exploring Personal Obsessions in Writing

24:47 Rachel's Writing Workshop

27:56 Creating a Safe Space for Writing

32:34 Learning from Different Skill Levels

36:40 Other Ways to Work with Rachel

39:33 Closing Remarks

You can find Rachel at https://www.rachellarsenweaver.com on Instagram at Rachel.Larsen.Weaver. Her run of the Words Workshop starts March 4th, 2024.

---

Alison Hatch (00:01.425)

Hey Rachel, thank you so much!

rachel (00:01.82)

Do you always do a dance for that? Yeah, I like it.

Alison Hatch (00:05.518)

dumb little countdown. So I'm trying to get into the groove, into the vibe of my countdown before my podcast starts.

rachel (00:15.338)

It's so good! They all need to see it, Allison!

Alison Hatch (00:20.014)

Okay, maybe I'll do it, but it'll probably get turned into a meme or something probably if I'm lucky. Anyway, thanks Rachel for being on today. I'm so excited to have you. If you guys don't know Rachel Larson-Weber, she's a friend of mine and she's amazing and creative and wonderful and so much fun to be around. So I'm so glad you get to be on the podcast today and we're going to talk all things words, which isn't very photography-y of us, but we're going to talk words today.

rachel (00:21.554)

Yeah.

rachel (00:49.447)

We get to lean into our artist creative selves that like are even more expansive maybe than our photographer selves.

Alison Hatch (00:57.714)

Yes, expansion. It's all about expansion. I like it. Yeah. So let's start with, you can introduce yourself if you want and how you got into writing.

rachel (01:01.111)

Yeah.

rachel (01:11.65)

Okay, so I, as Allison said, I'm Rachel Larson Weaver. I am a film photographer. That's, you know, how Allison and I came to know each other. I am also a mom to five kids. I, who happen to also mostly be homeschooled, though they range from like not yet in school and about to graduate in college. So, you know, there's a lot of various school happening or not happening.

And I also do educating and mentoring for photographers, but one month a year I teach a writing workshop, which is part of what we're talking about today. And then I guess the other part of the question was how did I get into writing? Sorry, you know when you start...

Alison Hatch (01:56.258)

Yes, yes.

Alison Hatch (02:00.206)

Yeah, how did you even get into writing? Yeah, if you're an analog film photographer, how is writing part of your process and how did you even get into it?

rachel (02:09.926)

Well, it was my process before photography ever was. It was actually writing that kind of brought photography to me. So my creative background was when I was young, I would not have actually said that I was particularly creative, but I loved to write. I always had a diary. I was always journaling. I was always dreaming of stories that I wanted to write, but that felt...

like a path for me. I also love the beach and I love swimming and even as a kid I was like, I bet a writer could just like live on the beach. They could live anywhere. So that was a big part of the dream. And so my undergraduate degree was in English and I, after my undergraduate, I started my MFA in creative writing. I had a baby in the middle of that first year and then I was like nursing her the second semester and so

I did not finish that MFA in creative writing. But that was always kind of the way I was drawn. But after I had my third child, I was missing having a consistent writing practice and I wanted to start a blog. And I felt like, oh, to start a blog, you have to have a camera, there has to be some pictures. And so it was actually, I started with the pictures to...

with the words, but now I tend to sort of think about the pairing almost in the other direction that now I often start with pictures and go to words, but I like the interplay of the two mediums, which I think lots of us do. It's the popularity of magazines were always the interplay of those two things. Blogs, social media, lots of places we like what conversation a photograph.

and a caption can have.

Alison Hatch (04:10.446)

Absolutely. And as photographers, we have no choice if you have a business to have to write. You have no choice. So why not embrace it as like a part of your creative practice and your expanse with your work that you do instead of fighting against it, which is

A lot of the reason why I came to you because I was like, I don't really want to do this. I don't know what to say. Like Rachel, help me out. This is hard. It can be really challenging when we're so used to being behind the camera and being faceless to having a voice in that way.

rachel (04:35.485)

D-

Yeah!

rachel (04:50.538)

I think that one of the things that becomes sort of important, I think, for the artist photographers, artist photographer entrepreneurs in particular, that if you're trying to run an artful photography business, but then you are always thinking of your captions or your newsletter or what you're writing on your website as copy rather than another art form to embrace.

you might feel yourself more resistance. Because I think most of us, we see the images we create, I don't think we're thinking of them as content, right? We might be using them sort of in that way, but we're creating art that we're sharing. And if you start to think of your writing as another way of creating art that you can share, but in a different medium, that will help get your work also in front of more people's eyes. I mean, just from a-

logistical, kind of marketable, analytical point of view. When you have longer captions, for instance, on an Instagram post, people stay there longer to read them, and that tells the algorithm this was a more interesting piece of content that it is going to put in front of more people. But if people have to trust that what you're putting in those captions

is something of value and that they're interested in. And so that's a practice you can build up.

Alison Hatch (06:24.702)

Yeah. So let's back way the heck up. We kind of like jump from how you started doing words into, all right, let's do this. So let's back way up. So five kids, MFA, like homeschool, your life is chaotic and you're adding in writing a newsletter and captions and mentorships and all these things and doing it from a place of creativity.

rachel (06:28.418)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (06:54.034)

instead of copy, I have to do this. So what, how are you juggling all of that? How are you adding in writing into your daily life as a creative practice versus I have to do?

rachel (07:08.626)

Well, one thing that I think is interesting to point out, you say all of those things and all of those things are true, but in some ways I might argue that it's the writing that helps make all of those things be possible rather than it being another thing that adds on. So I kind of see that I have two separate writing practices and they serve really different purposes. The first is a morning page practice.

Alison Hatch (07:21.31)

Ooh, I like it.

rachel (07:36.094)

which kind of comes from Julie Cameron's ideas, but I loosely follow the artist way concept on morning pages. But those pages that I try to write by hand in the morning, usually before the rest of my house wakes up while I'm drinking coffee, that is me processing all of the swirling thoughts, all of the ideas I have, the need to do's, the...

the anxiety is the hopes, the dreams. Those pages help me to work through all of that and to feel like I've kind of, by putting them on the page, I can let them go and then I can ground myself in the rest of my day. The thing that they also serve to do is that as I'm writing them, to the surface comes ideas that keep showing up and that are revealing themselves to me. And when I know when those ideas

keep bubbling up that that's probably something I want to write for a newsletter, which then becomes a shareable, more public-facing piece of writing, which that, morning pages feel less like a creative act and more like a meditative, prayerful, therapeutic act, whereas the writing of the newsletter kind of builds on that, and that does feel like the act of creation.

Alison Hatch (08:57.257)

Mm-hmm.

rachel (09:04.961)

Um.

Alison Hatch (09:05.118)

Yeah, I think as artists, we all have to have some sort of creative practices outside of our meet quote unquote medium, right? And everybody's heard of the artist way. And if you really do it, it's actually quite expansive, like spending time in nature and all this stuff. And I think it's absolutely okay. Like you're doing is just picking a part of it that works for you. We all need to just try to find that creative practice that works for us. And it's, it's the same for me. I journal every day as well.

rachel (09:13.392)

Yeah.

rachel (09:18.896)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (09:34.554)

And I, when I really think about what it does for me is we have all this information coming at us all the time. And it just kind of helps empty it out. It's just like, just empty it. Yeah.

rachel (09:45.33)

Yes. It feels like relief, like where, I mean, not to use like a really, it's like popping a pimple or something, do you know what I mean? Where you're like, cool, okay, yeah. Like, that's done. So now I can go on to the other stuff and it's not like festering or, but it really has, you know, that's, I think a huge part of, like I said,

Alison Hatch (09:55.298)

Satisfying! Yes! That's good! Yes!

Alison Hatch (10:06.103)

Yeah.

rachel (10:14.698)

It's almost separate from my creative practice. That's like what allows me the space to be creative. It's the work before the work. But you also mentioned, I do think having like more than one creative medium that we engage with, even if the only thing you care about truly in your heart of hearts is photography.

Alison Hatch (10:23.574)

Mm-hmm.

rachel (10:39.71)

I think when we are exploring other mediums, it helps make our photography richer and it helps us come to it with a new lens. And so playing in something and doing a little bit of cross training, I mean, I've never been an athlete, but I think they do that, right? I think that's a thing.

Alison Hatch (10:56.726)

Don't ask me. My friend, I haven't put a foot in a gym in a very, very long time. I don't know.

rachel (11:01.646)

Like, I think that like, you know, in off season, they're doing slightly different things and you're working different muscles and it does help come back to it. So even if you're like, I don't actually care about writing and it doesn't have to be writing, it could be anything. But I think if you are thinking about music and rhythm, that's probably going to then impact how you photograph. Or if you're thinking about painting, then all of a sudden you might have a different appreciation of how colors and

Alison Hatch (11:11.5)

Yeah.

rachel (11:30.638)

And so those of us who writing is the other thing, it might be even more about story or there's just different ways that those things are gonna impact how we build out the art in any other field. And I then, as I said, I started because I wanted pictures to go along with my writing. One thing that I found, especially at the time I had lots of little kids,

I had a really hard time writing in the noise at that point in my life, and so photography was something that I could do in the hustle and bustle of my life, where writing felt a little harder in that space. I was trying to give myself, I don't know, permission to do what feels right in any given season, right? That you're not holding so tight to the thing you always thought you would do.

Alison Hatch (12:25.879)

Yeah.

rachel (12:30.034)

that when a new thing uncovers itself. But now I've really, and so then I leaned pretty hard into photography and it's been in the last three years or so that I've brought back a strong writing practice. And then I like how they sit together and who knows how that will evolve in the future.

Alison Hatch (12:54.562)

Yeah, like, amen to that. Amen to whatever creative practice is coming towards you, accepting it and letting go of what's no longer serving you. And I am the same. I feel like as I want to live an artful life, I'm making this decision. And so it's easier for me to pick up different things. Like I have a lot of different outlets and mediums that I like to do.

rachel (12:57.734)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (13:20.802)

But if you aren't that person, maybe considering trying something outside of your medium, like you said, would be helpful for your medium. And writing and journaling every day, because I don't consider myself a writer, I just don't. It's not where I feel comfortable. Like you are freaking amazing at it. And for me, it's kind of a little more, you know, stop and start, like, I feel like it's learning to drive stick shift. It's like, ugh, like back and forth, back and forth, sometimes I can get forward and sometimes I stop.

but just journaling and like practicing, just practice, right? The thousand hour principle of you just gotta practice until you're great at it. Even though I'm journaling random nonsense that is not for anybody's eyes ever, and I delete it every day even, but to just practice typing it and a thought onto a page, just that alone is immensely helpful.

rachel (14:12.327)

Yeah!

Because it can be so difficult, especially if you grew up kind of under traditional schooling situations and you felt like once that it was going to be judged and it was gonna be, there was a standard that what your words needed to be. And so that can be a sort of a triggering experience for some people and there can be a lot of resistance to the very act because they're thinking.

Alison Hatch (14:27.856)

Oh yes.

rachel (14:43.602)

This has been painful for me in the past. And I can think of all sorts of ways that your words could have been misconstrued in the past or used against you. There can be this place of difficulty in the practice, but by showing up and doing it through journaling, doing it for your private self, and just the repetition of it, you tell yourself like...

Oh, I'm safe here. Like I can show up here, I can do this for myself. This is okay. And I think you can relax into it and see what it reveals.

Alison Hatch (15:23.73)

Yeah, I'm lucky enough to be really old so that stuff I made in the past wasn't for show. Yes, I did grow up in public school and yes, I wanted to be a straight A student and I never have put that those like connected the dots that way that me writing a paper is going to be graded. But I feel like in our society today, we create for content sake, right?

rachel (15:29.651)

Yeah.

rachel (15:49.032)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (15:49.578)

we create to show and creating to show is super important, but the reason behind it is even more important. And being able to create for no show is also really, really liberating and important for yourself to just have that freedom of expression for freedom of expression sake. And if that's journaling, writing or photography or dance or whatever the heck it is, just doing it for the sake of doing it

a great first step, especially if you're uncomfortable in that medium.

rachel (16:22.926)

Yeah, one of the things that kind of reminded me of too, as you were speaking, something that I think can be an interesting revelation when you are doing that writing just for the sake of yourself, just for your own eyes. But as you see what keeps coming up over and over again, I also think some of your like obsessions can become revealed. And one of the things I like to ask photographers who are engaging in that practice is

Is there an overlap between what you're obsessed with and what you're thinking about all the time and the actual work that you're creating? Because sometimes it's interesting to me, they aren't. It's like they've just been in their lane of photography and how they're going to depict a thing and they haven't put those together. And sometimes in writing it, I realize shifts that I should make so that my work is more aligned.

Alison Hatch (17:02.07)

Ew.

rachel (17:20.582)

with my values or with, you know, what my interests are. But I like it as an indicator for myself.

Alison Hatch (17:31.042)

deeply profound, Rachel. And I'm not surprised you had that deeply profound thought because you're just like that. You're amazing. But it is, it's really true. If you do the artist way, she says in the beginning that you will change. Like you cannot be the same person on the other side of this practice. And journaling, and we're talking about writing in general, like just writing and creative writing or whatever, but journaling, yes, the same stuff coming up over and over again. And it's like,

rachel (17:34.346)

It's

rachel (17:51.738)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (17:59.666)

uncovering things about yourself and what you yeah, who you really are underneath all of the cultural things that we've taught. My goodness, did you just why am I like fireworking behind me?

rachel (18:11.962)

she could have just she's saying this like beautiful thing and then fireworks exploded behind her screen it was just her screen saver went nuts and it was like that was amazing

Alison Hatch (18:13.467)

What was that?

Alison Hatch (18:24.746)

screen saver either. Okay, maybe the computer is like, oh, Alison, you're having a wonderful thought. This is so exciting. That was so good. But yeah, like you, you know, culturally we've taught to protect ourselves, right? Like we don't, our true authentic selves, unfortunately, we've had to like learn to keep safe. And when you journal, you're, you're relieving that. You're letting go of these things, peeling things back and finding things about yourself. But connecting it to my work,

rachel (18:30.778)

That was good, man!

Alison Hatch (18:54.542)

I haven't thought of that before. Like the same things that keep coming up in my journaling, am I showing it in my work? And I'll be honest, no, I'm not. And I wonder if I should. I don't know.

rachel (19:05.37)

I mean, again, you can try to make that work, and you don't have to show that either, but it could just be interesting to see, like, what does this look like in photographic form? What, and it doesn't have to be a one-to-one, it doesn't always have to be so literal, right? But if you're writing about...

Alison Hatch (19:13.107)

Yeah, that's true.

Alison Hatch (19:22.209)

Yeah.

rachel (19:34.494)

Belonging seems appropriate given the name of the podcast, but like then what if that keeps coming up some? Desire for a sense to belong or what then what? What are the different ways that translates? visually or How do you talk about the absence of it or do you know what I mean like that then becomes an interesting? Question for consideration that I just think

Alison Hatch (19:55.648)

Yeah.

rachel (20:02.598)

I don't know, always asking yourself the questions and seeing what the answers are, feels as useful as coming up with the answers. Recently, I felt like in my own journaling practice, I was getting kind of stagnant. And so I've just shifted to, I mean, it feels kind of like a prayerful opening to be like, what shall I know today? Like, what do you got for me, God?

And that sort of question when starting with the pause has been interesting to see what comes because otherwise sometimes I would jump right into this is what I have going on and this like how do I make this happen but kind of that second of pause has been revelatory. So whenever we do the pause in our own work it feels useful.

Alison Hatch (20:52.555)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (20:57.314)

Definitely that like, I was just talking to my son about this last night, that pause between something you react to, right? Like your reaction time, if you can elongate it more, like what are you really actually trying to get across or do?

just by expanding that ever so slightly. I was like, even for a millisecond, just expand it just a little more. And I was talking about him, you know, responding to text messages, because anyway, I'm a mom of teens. So, you know, but it's true in like having that pause, cause we're such go, go. Our lives are busy, everybody's are. And if we can leave space, and I'm gonna get a little woo here for a second, leaving space for that.

rachel (21:27.139)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (21:45.182)

you know, like you said, spirituality, like what's God trying to tell me or what is the creative source wanting to give to you that day? It's like trying to talk to you, but if we're too busy to listen to it, then it's not gonna, it's not gonna land. So having that pause, I love it.

rachel (21:51.698)

Yeah.

rachel (22:04.21)

No, it felt like I was going in with my text message before they ever had a response, anything to say. And I was like, creative source, here's what I've got going on. And there was never like, I wasn't trying to create a dialogue there. And it's been, I feel like it's been something kind of 20, 24, the last few weeks. And I felt, I have felt so settled and grounded and.

Alison Hatch (22:07.988)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (22:14.046)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (22:18.296)

Yeah.

rachel (22:30.386)

like more peaceful than how kind of that tail end of 2023 where you kind of get that. I'm like, okay, what will come to me is going to come to me and the words, but writing is writing is a practice that I think asks us to slow down and anything that we're any creative practice that we're doing. I mean, you're in do you knit and crochet?

Alison Hatch (22:38.98)

Yes. Yes, very much.

Alison Hatch (22:59.604)

I knit.

rachel (23:00.59)

Yeah, I mean, that's a slow ass practice.

Alison Hatch (23:02.726)

It is so it is a slow last practice. Oh, my goodness. People like ask me, why do you do this? First of all, you spend a ton of more money than buying the actual sweater. First of all, you're going to spend more money and then you're going to spend who knows how many hours to actually knit it out. And then if I don't like it, I will rip it out. I will just undo it. It's not about the end result for me. It's about the practice. It's about feeling it in my hand like

rachel (23:12.062)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (23:32.922)

finding something I want to create, feeling it in my hands and the rhythm of knitting, like it's more about the creating than the end result for knitting. Like way too reverent for knitting.

rachel (23:47.138)

No, but I loved it because I was thinking about how different mediums that impact it. And I was thinking about the textural and the feeling quality and that being something that you love. And I can think about how that also shows up in the images that you make. And again, the interplay between what we love and how they come into different places, that makes sense to me that here's this person who has reverence.

Alison Hatch (23:54.157)

Yeah?

rachel (24:14.462)

for texture and then you're like, oh yeah, duh.

Alison Hatch (24:18.038)

Yeah, I haven't thought of that before. That's true though. That's awesome. Okay, so you offer a writing class. Let's talk about, I've actually taken it and it was, can I say it this way? It was everything I didn't expect and everything I needed. Like I went into it for something other than what I got out of it and what I got out of it was exactly what I needed to get out of it. So let's talk about your class. It was...

Awesome. So let's talk a little bit about it.

rachel (24:50.186)

So the bone structure of it is that every day for a four week period, I mean, I keep saying every day, but it's Monday through Friday. I don't consider the weekends days or something. You get an emailed prompt. Everybody in the group does. And then twice a week, we meet for live calls that do, that we do exercises in class.

Alison Hatch (25:03.099)

Everybody needs time off.

rachel (25:16.926)

that there's ideas that I'll share and bring, and then people are sharing their work, both maybe what they've made outside of the time, and then sometimes the exercises that we're writing in there. I think I love a prompt, and I love how it can change how we've been thinking about something. And so even if you're a writer, but you feel like...

like me that you can be writing about the same things over and over again. I don't think that there's anything bad about that. I just had a newsletter on that and I was writing something else in that same idea. I think we get to write about our obsessions until we're done with them. We'll know we need to stop writing about them because we'll want to. And like don't suppress that because if you suppress that you're gonna suppress the whole creative flow. So just like let it come out and through. But I also think

you want to balance that with novelty and new ways of thinking. And probably your obsessions are still going to come through in those places, but maybe now you've changed the lens that you've looked at them because we're trying to imitate a stream of consciousness style, or we're thinking about how we can use repetitive word phrases. So like there's some of those craft elements woven in so that hopefully that you can take some of that.

to apply to your writing and feel that you have more of a toolbox, more skills around it. But primarily I think it's about

the ritual in creating time and space for your writing, for connecting with other creative people who are willing to share their work and to listen to your work. Like, I feel like listening is a huge part of what we're doing in there, and I think that can be a really beautiful thing. So inspiring and connecting and listening feel like really what we're creating the space for together.

Alison Hatch (27:19.935)

Yeah.

rachel (27:26.246)

I mean, I was amazed what some people were sharing in there last year. Yeah.

Alison Hatch (27:30.078)

Oh yeah, oh yeah. It was mind blowing, a little daunting, but I think what's so important with your class and what I appreciated so much about it was, number one, it's completely safe. It's a completely safe space. If you can, if you're like, I have no creative writing ability whatsoever, you're absolutely welcome and safe in that space. You can choose to share or not share.

You can go through the prompts every day in your own way. And when you feel ready to share something you can, you also do a Facebook group with it. And so people were sharing, they weren't feeling willing to do it in class, but they would do it in the Facebook group and whoever read it, read it and gave feedback. And honestly, everybody's feedback was incredibly positive. Nobody's gonna be mean or.

pick you apart, that's not the reason for the class whatsoever. It's about, for me, it was about the confidence in my own voice, which I didn't have before I went in. I had no confidence in my voice whatsoever, and that my voice didn't matter. And after I came out of the class, I felt like, yes, this is my voice and it freaking matters and I'm going to share it. And if I get, and I felt confident enough that if I got

rachel (28:46.931)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (28:52.05)

negative feedback where if people are like what you're saying is absolutely not true or ridiculous or wrong, I could be like, well, that's how I feel and you can take it or leave it. And it was so liberating to take your class for me in that sense.

rachel (29:01.436)

Yeah.

rachel (29:05.398)

That makes me so happy. That brings me a lot of joy because I like hearing your voice. I like the things that you have to say. I like how you say them in your podcast. I like how you say them in your newsletter. I like how you say them on your Instagram. I do think it is a nice place to be able to practice sharing that work and having kind of a baby step maybe before you are trying to share it more publicly.

Alison Hatch (29:12.802)

Take care.

Alison Hatch (29:30.946)

Hmm.

rachel (29:34.374)

because it's a more limited group. And also, I don't know if you ever find this, sometimes I'm more worried about sharing things to people I know than people I don't know. Like it's a lot easier to show it to strangers where it can feel a lot weirder when you're like at the grocery store and that lady you, that lives across the street, read your, do you know what I mean? That feels a little more like, ah. But so.

Alison Hatch (29:48.319)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (29:57.11)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I do. I absolutely do, yeah.

rachel (30:04.058)

you are practicing it, that kind of sharing in a group that is smaller and is maybe separate from the rest of your life. And it might make you feel a little more liberated to try out what it feels like to speak certain truths.

Alison Hatch (30:22.846)

Yeah, absolutely. Like if you are feeling like you need to incorporate, like you know you need to be writing more for whatever reason, your business, your personal self, your creative practice, whatever, your, your class is definitely the place to start. It is a really great springboard for whatever needs to come next.

rachel (30:45.894)

You know, I had this thought as you were talking too about like how it can be intimidating if you don't feel like a writer. And there were people in that class who were there. Well, and also like people who were very confident writers and had, and like this was really something that they had done, but I want to, so to give you a little more of my background.

Alison Hatch (30:58.034)

Yeah, me.

rachel (31:08.658)

So I have this homeschooling background, but I was also a public school English teacher for eight years. So I'm like used to reading and responding to people's writing. But one of the things I love about a homeschooling model is that when, and I think like, this is kind of the Montessori model sometimes, but the idea that like everybody's not on the same level all the time. I don't love like

age segregation when kids are little. And I also don't love like skill segregation always, because I think that there's also so much learning that gets to happen when you have people like in various abilities coming together because, and it doesn't just mean that the people who are the most skilled and competent at something are just like carrying the weight. I also think of like people who maybe don't know how to do it. I think that they're also learning from them. You become more aware.

of your own writing and your own process and your own decisions and why you're doing things. Sometimes also when you're seeing people who aren't doing those things and you're thinking about them, that it can be like by reading that you notice like, oh, I think they could have kind of tweaked their parallel structure and am I doing that? Or you do you know what I mean? Like that there's this inner play that happens and I think that is a beautiful way to learn and to come together.

Alison Hatch (32:24.788)

Yeah.

rachel (32:34.278)

I felt like it was one of the things I loved about the class last year and I'm looking forward to again.

Alison Hatch (32:34.452)

Yeah, I-

Alison Hatch (32:38.418)

I did. So my perspective is a newbie and that's why I keep talking about it. But there were people in there who obviously were very well read and write often. And it was just so interesting to interact with them. Yeah. And if you, I just have my perspective, but yeah, I would assume that if you've been doing it, having just

rachel (32:47.674)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (33:07.286)

getting gaining a different point of view with your work no matter where you are in your journey of writing is helpful.

rachel (33:16.074)

which you know, that's my, I like bringing not completely homogenous groups together in an ideal world. So I like it when that happens and then the different things that you bring to it. Also I think sometimes, you know, it's that beginner's mindset can also be revelatory. I mean how many people do you know that to bring it back to photography, you'd like learn how to take kind of perfect pictures. And then you want to go back.

to like using disposable film cameras so that it's messy and has that wild raw quality. And sometimes as you're reading people's work who they haven't polished it so much, it reminds you of that energy and that zest that can come from writing that you're like, oh man, I've been editing that out of my work. Like how do I reconnect to that piece of it?

Alison Hatch (34:12.11)

That's awesome. Okay, so when does your next run of the workshop go?

rachel (34:13.78)

Alright.

rachel (34:17.454)

Oh, you've got me so excited thinking about it, Allison, because it's not for a little bit. The class doesn't start until March 4th, I believe is the first Monday in March. And then it runs for four weeks. The live portion of the class is on Tuesdays and Thursdays at noon Eastern. Those are all recorded. And based on feedback that somebody named Allison Hatch gonna change how you get the recordings, because you had said that it was like,

Alison Hatch (34:19.506)

Yeah, sure.

Alison Hatch (34:45.366)

Sorry, sorry it was challenging.

rachel (34:46.466)

Oh no! I loved that! I was like, oh at the end of every email I'm just gonna keep... they can all be there, the links in every single email so that like when I'm sending... anyhow. That's a boring technical piece but I wanna... I was like, Allison thanks for that! That was good! I can fix that!

Alison Hatch (35:01.45)

Yes, technology challenges to me is like, where are the recordings again? But I love that you're doing it in March. I feel like spring is, you know, such a great time to work on ourselves, expand ourselves and grow. Whatever little seed of that creative source is within you is ready to expand. Like March is such a great time to do it. I love you're doing it in March.

rachel (35:05.102)

Yeah.

rachel (35:24.474)

Now it feels really right to me because I think lots of us were kind of getting out of our slumber and I think even as people are signing up for it now it feels that like I'm ready to have something to be excited about and to look forward to and that often also depending on like what region you are in photograph I start to feel that photograph like that desire to create but sometimes in March the light still isn't great it's not that like it's still not that easy the circumstances but

Alison Hatch (35:27.381)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (35:34.946)

Mm-hmm.

rachel (35:54.27)

then getting to have something to start scratching that creative itch as you feel yourself kind of working out of the dirt, trying to bloom.

Alison Hatch (36:01.342)

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Okay, so we can sign up for the class now.

rachel (36:06.162)

Yep, you can sign up for the class now. I think based on when Alison said this is coming out, the early bird price, which saves $100, applies until January 29th. So if you're listening to this quickly, or like when it comes out, you still have time for the early bird price. Yeah.

Alison Hatch (36:18.31)

Oh yes, you'll have a week.

Alison Hatch (36:24.422)

a couple days actually. Yeah a couple days because it's going to come out. What's the date today? Anyway it's coming out soon. Anyway and then where else what else can people if they don't want to work with you with writing well how else can they work with you? You have so many different offers let's hear them real quick.

rachel (36:40.106)

If you are a photographer and you want to work in kind of a longer form format through mentorship, I offer an intimate mentorship experience where it's like four people and for four months and there's an in-person workshop in my hometown. So people are signing up for that summer round right now. And I also travel the US making pictures. And so if you...

are interested in working together. All of that's at Rach or Rachel.Larson.Weaver on Instagram. And then you can sign up for my weekly newsletter if you're so inclined. And you know, one of the things I like about newsletters too, it also kind of, it gives you a place, do you ever find this, that you'll read somebody's newsletter and then you kind of want to respond to it and that gives you your idea for your newsletter that like,

Alison Hatch (37:15.469)

Perfect.

Alison Hatch (37:20.831)

I love your newsletter.

Alison Hatch (37:32.128)

Yes!

Yeah.

rachel (37:35.322)

You just let it kind of be a conversation. So I think if you're a...

Alison Hatch (37:40.899)

It's interesting to see who responds and who doesn't respond to my newsletter. Yeah, it is. And those people usually have their own newsletter who are responding. Yeah.

rachel (37:50.858)

But I also think sometimes the response can be like, sometimes you might have said something and I might not respond directly almost, but then the idea is percolating and then it's like oops, three weeks later I didn't even realize, like I wrote my own newsletter in response to it because like that's how ideas work with us, right?

Alison Hatch (37:59.83)

Mm-hmm.

Alison Hatch (38:07.23)

No, seriously. Like, what comes to mind is that, so Rachel did my long form session with me and my boys here in New Mexico, which was amazing. And we talked about relationships. So I've been married for, oh my gosh, 24 years, oh, a long time. So, and that like, you know, we celebrate newness, marriage, and the beginnings of things instead of the relationships and it's involved, like how it evolves and grows and changes.

rachel (38:24.467)

Yeah.

Alison Hatch (38:37.01)

and morphs and you did a newsletter on it. Like, I don't know if you, yeah, like it just kept, that conversation just kept going. It was so awesome.

rachel (38:39.602)

Yeah. No, I mean also because

No, because like also because Alison and her partner are like such best friends and like they're so like, no, it's, it's inspiring and it's fun. You're like, what? How do we get more places for celebrating that? So yeah, and then you get to write about it and think about it later. And I feel like that's what I love about writing. It gives me this place to keep. I don't know.

Alison Hatch (38:51.558)

We are, it's ridiculous. We're disgusting.

Alison Hatch (39:02.701)

Yeah.

rachel (39:12.31)

make tangible all of these swirling thoughts and observations and things you want to celebrate and things you want to you're like oh i've got a container for that

Alison Hatch (39:21.482)

Yeah, exactly. Container like photography is like a piece we get to hold on to a little longer and writing is holding onto it and just Savoring it and letting it you know sit just a little bit longer on your palate. Yeah, I love it Well, thank you rachel so much for being on I love talking to you I wish you were closer so we could hang out more. Why do we have to live so freaking far away? Oh, yeah, I know you did like it You do

rachel (39:33.696)

Yeah. Thank you! I do too! I know, I want to be closer because I want to be in New Mexico more. I might like New Mexico more than you do.

Yeah!

Alison Hatch (39:50.318)

That's okay. I'm trying to love it. I am, I really am, but you did. You really liked it. So thank you so much for being on. I appreciate it. If you guys are listening to this, all the links will be in the show notes to Rachel's website and the words workshop and all the other fun things that you can work with Rachel in. And thank you so much for being on.

rachel (39:56.838)

Yeah.

rachel (40:10.398)

Thank you.

Alison Hatch (40:12.43)

I'm gonna end it and we just have to.