Exploring the Niche of Interior Photography with Natalia Robert | Photographers Create Podcast
Natalia Robert shares her journey into interior photography and the differences between shooting for real estate listings and interior designers. She emphasizes the importance of building relationships with interior designers and capturing specific moments that evoke a feeling. Natalia provides tips and tricks for working with interiors, including using a tripod, straightening verticals, and mastering masking in Photoshop. She also discusses her platform, The Grove, which provides resources, courses, and a supportive community for women in the interior photography industry.
BioNatalia Robert is an interior photographer in Southern California and founder of The Grove. Natalia serves Interior Designers by telling the visual story of their projects. Her photos have been seen on Elle Decor, Wall Street Journal, Sunset, San Diego Magazine, and San Diego Home/Garden Lifestyle. In 2019, Natalia founded The Grove with the mission to increase representation of women in architectural and interior photography through community support, education, and opportunities.
When she's not shooting, speaking, or mentoring, Natalia can be found relaxing with her fur baby Daisy, taking day trips to anywhere within a few hours' drive, or spending time with friends and family.
TakeawaysInterior photography is a niche within the photography industry that is often overlooked but offers unique opportunities to blend design and architecture with photography.
Working with interior designers requires building relationships and understanding their vision for the space.
Tips for interior photography include using a tripod, straightening verticals, and mastering masking in Photoshop.
The Grove is a platform that provides resources, courses, and a supportive community for women in the interior photography industry.
Links: https://www.wearegrovestrong.com/
https://www.instagram.com/wearegrovestrong
Host Alison Hatch
Chapters00:00 Introduction and Background
03:11 Exploring the Niche of Interior Photography
09:20 Building Relationships with Interior Designers
16:17 Tips and Tricks for Interior Photography
Natalia Robert (00:01.006)
Natalia, it's so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today and telling us all things interior photography, which is a super out of my element type of photography and niche. So I'm so glad you're on and we can talk about this today and glean all of your goodness and information onto the rest of us. So thank you so much for being here.
Natalia Robert (00:20.592)
I'm sorry.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, Allison. I'm really excited. I'm a fan of your podcast so far, and I'm always happy to talk interior photography. I just don't think it's talked about enough in the photography industry as its own little niche, so I'm always happy to share whatever I can.
Natalia Robert (00:42.03)
Okay, so why don't you start off by telling us how you got into photography and specifically interior photography.
Natalia Robert (00:50.512)
Sure, I'll give you the really condensed version. I've loved photography since high school. So photography club, the old camera from the parents, that whole thing. And I didn't end up studying it formally. I actually ended up going to college for architecture. So that's what my degree is. That's the career track I was on the whole time in the dark room in college doing all the photography things, but I wasn't professionally on that track.
Natalia Robert (00:55.182)
Hey.
Natalia Robert (01:19.984)
graduated, I was an architect for about four years. And then I got a really just huge life detour where I went to teach Spanish in India. It was one of these random, unexpected, never gonna happen again offers. And when I came back from that, there was, it was a recession, I landed at a job that I wasn't really happy at. And that job led me back to photography. So that's where I got led back to in...
Natalia Robert (01:34.254)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (01:49.392)
summer of 2012, so 12 years ago, I just kind of took the leap and quit the office job I was at. And from one day to the next, I was full -time photographer. Started out like most where I would basically photograph anything that would pay. And I was like, yeah, I guess I'll do weddings and portraits. Sure, why not? Headshots?
And I did some of that. I did a fair amount of different types of portraits and I did a few weddings here or there. Incredibly stressful for me. I realized I don't enjoy it. So, and then I started this little company, put an ad on Craigslist, this little company called Airbnb was looking for photographers. And that was my first taste of photographing a space. And I look back on that first shoot now and it was horrific.
Natalia Robert (02:25.902)
lot.
Natalia Robert (02:43.952)
But it led me to realize that I could kind of blend my love of design and architecture with photography. And I kind of started experimenting more and more in how can I photograph structures and spaces. Found out real estate was not for me, it's just a completely different beast. And I started kind of honing in on working with interior designers and that was sort of my sweet spot. And...
it just kind of grew from there. So in 2016, I believe it was, was when I rebranded to really present myself as an architectural and interior photographer only. And that was one of the best things I did, because it really did kind of cut out all of the other types of work that I didn't enjoy doing. So that's in a nutshell how I got into interior photography.
Natalia Robert (03:38.286)
sense that that's what you'd be gravitating towards if you have an architecture degree that obviously you went into that field because you like buildings and things like that. It would make sense that that totally married. And then working with Airbnb when it was a startup, that was pretty crazy.
Natalia Robert (03:43.376)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (03:56.72)
Yeah, it was I mean, they were posting on Craigslist to try and find people to take photos. And because it was so early in their days, I think it was 2010, 2011. Whenever like I you know, you're still getting paid pennies, they pay very much below market rate, even today. But it was even less than but the photo team at their headquarters was really small. And so the nice thing was that
Natalia Robert (04:00.238)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (04:26.672)
They genuinely looked at every single photo you took and they gave you critique and feedback so that you could improve. And so that was sort of, that was my bootcamp. That was really how I got a lot of feedback early on and I kind of hit the ground running. That's where I improved a lot honestly was with that early feedback from their team, because they were so vigilant on what was getting submitted.
Natalia Robert (04:32.846)
Interesting.
Natalia Robert (04:52.526)
Interesting, interesting. So yeah, I can see the difference between real estate photography and interior and working with interior design. Like real estate is just like, how big does this look? Like how can I make this bigger or more appealing somehow versus I, you know, I'm sure that, I mean, all of us photographers get into what we're doing because we have some sort of art is important to us, right? And working with an interior designer, let's like,
Natalia Robert (04:54.64)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (05:21.486)
marrying two wonderful arts together. I'm sure that's fantastic. So why don't you tell us more about working with interiors and working with interior designs and designers and that whole world? Because I literally know nothing, nothing.
Natalia Robert (05:37.328)
Well, I'll start with just a little rundown of, like you said, there are differences between shooting for an interior designer versus shooting for a real estate listing. There's kind of some of the obvious that you can see where, you know, with real estate listings, you tend to see more of like you stand in the corner, you shoot really wide and you make the space look gigantic as much as possible. The editing is really different. You see a lot of that.
the HDR where it's automated HDR, the outside view is the same exact exposure as the inside, doesn't really look super real. But there's also big differences in things on the back end. The process is really transactional for real estate. There are photo shoots that tend to be at much lower price points. There are more immediate need, you have to be available a little bit more last minute and deliver within usually,
24 to 48 hours you're delivering the photos. They also often want things like floor plans and 3D tours and all those kind of things. And you tend to work in volume. So like photographers that do real estate, they tend to have to have a really solid workflow of outsourcing to different people so that they can shoot maybe, you know, three, four, five, eight houses a day. And...
Natalia Robert (06:51.086)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (06:59.824)
maintain income and kind of make it financially make sense. One thing I wanted to touch on is the licensing is also different. So real estate and interiors, you know, it's types of commercial photography. It's B2B. We're dealing with marketing a product or service. And so that's when you start going into the territory of licensing and usage. And for real estate, they really just need it for the sale of that house.
So it's a much shorter term. It's very limited on what they're using it for. With an interior designer, it can be a slippery slope of the designer needs it for websites, social publications, in perpetuity. And then potentially you have the contractor, the architect, the lighting company, the flooring company, all these other people that may need to license the photo. So licensing is really different.
Natalia Robert (07:29.55)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (07:57.04)
And that plays into the pricing a little bit too. So that's kind of a rundown of a little bit of the distinction between those two. Working with interior designers, it's great. It's really relationship heavy. So like if you think about interior designers, they have a project that they're working on usually for anywhere from like four months to a couple of years. They're working on this project. So it's like their baby.
Natalia Robert (07:59.886)
Interesting.
Natalia Robert (08:26.48)
And sometimes we reach out to them or they're juggling a million things and they don't need us for another six months. So the amount of times that you're photographing with them could be just once or twice a year, especially if it's kind of a local designer, just usually like a one woman kind of operation.
but it's very relationship heavy. They want to know that the photographer they're working with is somebody that they can trust, somebody that can really show off their project well, and ideally somebody they can work with regularly for a long time. So they're looking for that relationship. And then in return, when we find a client that we work well with, there's a little bit of that client loyalty. And you know that if you just keep things going well,
Natalia Robert (09:19.566)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (09:20.24)
That's your client, like you are photographing their projects. Designers often will want consistency in the look of their photos, because if you think about their website, it's a lot better if all the photos feel cohesive. Even if the projects look different. If you have different photographers shooting each project, suddenly it feels really choppy and it ends up feeling a little bit less professional. So.
Natalia Robert (09:36.174)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (09:47.504)
the relationship building is really what takes the most time. It's not a, I'm gonna do interior photos and next week I have a photo shoot booked. It's gonna take a good amount of just connecting with designers and really standing out and building that trust. So getting started is a little slow usually, but it's worth it.
Natalia Robert (10:11.054)
Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Yeah, breaking in and feels like you kind of have to get in with the in group might be a little challenging. But yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. But that's awesome. Once you have the client, you've got the client and you've got continual work from them. That's that's really cool because like other.
Natalia Robert (10:19.952)
It can be.
Natalia Robert (10:33.806)
Weddings especially is like one client and you're done and you gotta go find another one. So that's a definite plus for working with interior designers. So what, what do you love about working with interiors? What helps you stay creative when working with interiors? I know that, you know, you can't mess with their work. I'm sure you're like, this is, this is their work. And I can't be like, you know, that doesn't look really good right there. Can we just move things around?
Like how do you keep things fresh for yourself and creative for yourself and like rewarding for you because not getting a rep.
Natalia Robert (11:14.832)
I mean, I kind of love the challenge of when there is a tough space, you know, there's this sort of dark windowless hall bathroom that's a little bit nondescript and the designer's like, I just don't have much for a portfolio. I just need good images of something to get started. A lot of times with those kind of projects, I love the challenge. So.
part, that's a big part of it, is really having the eye for it. So if you start, you know, I have a little bit of an edge when I started, because I have the design kind of mentality already from my background. But even if you flip through magazines, you start to kind of get a feel for those moments in a space that are worth capturing, because unlike real estate, with design, you're not trying to.
that get full coverage of a space. You're not trying to show off everything and all the features. You're being really specific about certain moments and certain spots in the design that are really making you feel something. It's gonna evoke a feeling. And so it takes a little practice. And there are certain types of shots that I always like to suggest to people like.
you know, for example, a straight on like a one point perspective of a wall, if you have a feature wall. So there are things you can look for when you're sort of at a loss. But yeah, it's a little bit of the challenge. It's where are those moments? And a lot of times that will also come from talking with the designer. It's very collaborative. So it's extremely rare that I will go to a photo shoot and I haven't seen cell phone shots.
progress shots from during the project phases or had any kind of input from the designer on like the key features or you know, we took out this one wall so I want to make sure we get a view of that opened up. So a lot of times the designer they know this project inside out, they will come with ideas or desires of what they want. And then our job is to make sure that it translates to an image. So.
Natalia Robert (13:33.68)
you mentioned we can't really touch the design much, but we do a lot of tethering. So we're doing a lot of tethering so we can see the live view through the camera on an iPad or computer in the moment. And a big reason for doing that is because we're standing there with the designer next to us and we're looking at it and I can say, you know what?
Natalia Robert (13:36.878)
Right.
Natalia Robert (13:59.12)
this is really heavy in the foreground. Why don't we move that chair over to the left and kind of like lessen that? Because our clients know it looks different through the camera than when you look at it in real life. So it's our job to say, gorgeous, let's set up a shot and see how it looks with the camera. And then we can make little tweaks to make sure that it looks through the camera the way that it feels in person.
Natalia Robert (14:16.942)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (14:26.158)
Interesting.
Natalia Robert (14:27.024)
So it's, I don't know if that answered your question, but.
Natalia Robert (14:29.518)
It does, it absolutely does. That's a very constrained in a way, but like you said, in the beginning, it's very collaborative working with your designer. So that, yeah, that totally answers my question. So why don't you give listeners tips and tricks with working with interiors? Because I'm sure it's a totally different beast than natural light. Yeah.
Natalia Robert (14:51.024)
Yeah.
It is, it is. And one of the things that I see a lot in interior photography, especially over the last few years, ever since the pandemic, when I think a lot of photographers were looking for fresh avenues to kind of go down with different types of work, there's a lot of photographers that might have, they know somebody that's a designer or they have a friend of a friend. So they take on an interior shoot and...
they don't realize that it can be quite technical compared to other types of work. So yeah, anything that I can give to kind of help, especially photographers who have that photography base already, they know what they're doing with the camera, but they're stepping into this different type of work. The first is as much as you might resist it, give into using a tripod. It will save you a million headaches in editing later. And...
when you start to realize more of what settings you want, you are going to be using exposures that are a little bit long for handheld. You're gonna start taking multiple exposures to be able to Photoshop them together. So just get used to a tripod. It doesn't have to be fancy, but just get a tripod and get used to it and use it. The main thing with any kind of architecture or interiors is...
you want those verticals to be straight. So you don't want to shoot with the camera angled up or down, because it's just going to distort the verticals and make them kind of wonky. So the distortion and getting those verticals straight up and down, that's one of the first things that we fix in editing. And so if you can get that right in camera, which is where the tripod helps, then that saves you a lot too. And
Natalia Robert (16:42.446)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (16:46.896)
it instantly will elevate the photo. Like those of us who are more in that niche, we look at those photos of people who are starting out with it and we cringe when we see those vertical lines that kind of veer out towards the edge at the bottom or that are like barrel distortion because it just, it sticks out like a sore thumb. It stands out very much. So keep an eye out for that. There's a grid that you can put on on the back of your camera through the LCD screen.
use it. You can also use the level that's built into the camera that helps a lot. So use all those things. And then the other big thing that I would say, actually, I'm going to do two. Before I get to the other big one. Don't be afraid to go in tighter on something. I think people have a tendency to want to photograph the entire room.
And especially when you go more to kind of high -end design, things that are in magazines. If you flip through magazines, the majority of what you see, it's not showing the whole room. It's showing a corner of it. It's showing that reading nook or the breakfast area, or it's showing like the sink by the window in the kitchen. So you're focusing more on these moments that evoke feeling.
Natalia Robert (17:57.07)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (18:13.04)
So don't be afraid to go in tighter. That's gonna tell more of a story than if you just shoot wide and get the whole room in a picture.
And now the last one. A lot of photographers struggle with getting used to masking in Photoshop. And if that's something that you're not familiar or comfortable with yet, I would definitely hop on Google, go to YouTube, wherever. They can go to the Grove site and kind of learn, but there's communities, there are sites, Google, YouTube, wherever.
learn about masking in Photoshop. And what that does is when you start taking different exposures of one photo, it's the way that you even out the light. So you don't want, even if you leave some bright light through a window, you don't want the fuzziness and the glare and the huge, like overpowering white light that comes through it. So you...
Natalia Robert (19:19.054)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (19:20.176)
Those are the types of things that you start evening out with all these different exposures that you then blend together by hand with masking. So essentially you're gonna take all these different exposures, they go into Photoshop. Masking lets you put like a screen over each layer and then you can use the brush to literally just like brush on the parts that you want to show through. And that's the way that you can hand blend.
Natalia Robert (19:28.59)
Wow.
Natalia Robert (19:45.486)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (19:49.616)
images and that's a big big part of our editing process. It's pretty editing heavy and that's usually the most time -consuming part is really blending those images together. So if you can just get familiar with the process of masking and with that tool in Photoshop, you'll have a step up once you do start taking multiple exposures. You'll be so much more comfortable kind of elevating it to that.
to that level where you're evening out the light naturally.
Natalia Robert (20:21.55)
Interesting. So I assume you're using a 50 millimeter if you're trying to have everything be straight and normal so you don't get distortion. Like what type of what lens are you using?
Natalia Robert (20:33.008)
So I actually use a 16 to 35 because I love the zoom ability, but I typically am closer to like the 20 to 30 millimeter range when I use it. And then when I do details or vignettes, I put on my 50. So I rarely am using that zoom lens at 16 just because it does get a lot of distortion. So that's usually like.
Natalia Robert (20:36.878)
Oh, interesting. Okay.
Natalia Robert (20:46.318)
Okay.
Natalia Robert (20:51.31)
Okay. Okay.
Natalia Robert (20:59.438)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (21:00.688)
those little hall bathrooms where you kind of don't have a choice. And then you're like, I just gotta, I just gotta fix it later. I'll fix when I can. Yeah.
Natalia Robert (21:03.278)
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. So yeah, I know how to mask. I know how to put someone else's head on, you know, squat heads. That's it. Like, I'm sure it is. Yours sounds much more complicated. Taking multiple exposures of the same thing and then layering them all together and knowing where to remove and where to add.
Natalia Robert (21:15.728)
Yeah, it's the same concept. It's the same thing.
Natalia Robert (21:28.144)
You
Natalia Robert (21:32.334)
you know, to blend it all, that's gotta take some serious skill.
Natalia Robert (21:36.432)
Well, I mean, I see it as kind of putting a puzzle together. Like when I'm shooting, I'm looking at what's in the frame and I'm thinking of like, what are the pieces that I need? So I have this really dark area here. So let me get some bright exposures that I can use for that. I have a really bright area here by the window. Let me make sure I get a few darker exposures. So I'm sort of collecting all the pieces that I need. And then when it comes to my editing, that's when I have to...
do my calling and I have to look through and be like, okay, that one's gonna be for the window, that one's gonna be for the window frame, that one's gonna be for that chair where it had the big reflection on it, that one's where I blocked out that glare spot, that's where I had that dark corner. So it gets easier with time, but you're kind of putting this little puzzle pieces together. So it's kind of like if you have a group photo and you're like, okay, I have to replace that head there.
Natalia Robert (22:33.07)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (22:33.136)
and I had to replace that arm there that looks weird. And then that foot is sticking out. It's very much the same thing, but with a room.
Natalia Robert (22:35.63)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (22:43.31)
Yeah, Utah, it sounds very intricate and detailed, which makes sense if you were an architect before that this is your jam. And I, it's amazing. I think it's fantastic. You talked about like where you could go to learn how to do some of this stuff. You talked about the growth. Why don't you tell us more about the growth?
Natalia Robert (23:00.816)
Yeah, absolutely. So 2016 was when I rebranded to make myself specifically for architecture and interiors. And I started looking online and being like, where are some courses, some resources, what are people saying? And I legitimately could not find a lot of information on interior photography. I found a lot on real estate and I found some on exterior desk photos.
and it was all a bunch of guys that were talking about this. And I was like, there have to be other women doing this. And there have to be people that are shooting for interior designers. It seemed like its own little weird niche, this strange little specialty. And I still, you know, over the next few years, I wasn't seeing a lot of stuff come up. I would take online course here or there when it felt like it related. And so in 2019,
I decided to put some stuff out there from what I had learned just to start getting information out there for interiors, kind of saving other people the headache. And...
When I first had the idea, I didn't initially intend to focus on helping out other women in the industry, but it made sense because before I did that, I started a Facebook group for female interior and architectural photographers. And that was literally just me desperately trying to find other women who do this kind of work. And then eventually I realized that is who the Grove is speaking to. So the Grove started as me putting together a digital course,
Natalia Robert (24:31.534)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (24:41.328)
And I think there was like one or two handouts that were downloadables. And today it's grown quite a bit. So we have about 700 women in our Facebook group, which is kind of the heart and soul of the Grove. And we have three online courses and we have contract templates, email templates, presets, and we have a small team of mentors, which are different women in the industry.
who can speak expertly to different parts of your business. What else do we have? So we started the membership, which kind of made the Facebook group official. And then beyond that, last year we started doing monthly webinars. And so the upper tier of membership gives you access to all the recordings and the webinars are with experts in all these adjacent industries.
So that's become a big resource and we have a bunch of free resources on the site too. We have what we call field notes, which is basically just a library of articles about all types of different things relating to this type of work or being a photographer in general. But a lot of it really caters to specifically shooting interiors and architecture. And I made it a point to really specifically connect with and spotlight women in the industry because...
I had been seeing statistics that were terrible. It makes sense that I wasn't finding them. Things like, let me see if I can remember these, because I did not look these up before our talk. But I think it was something like 85 % of photography students are female, but only 15 % of those end up actually having a professional photography business. So it goes from 85 %...
Natalia Robert (26:18.19)
That's okay.
Natalia Robert (26:35.312)
being students to 15 % actually having an actual business doing it. And then, gosh, there were some staggering statistics about the low percentages of women that get like covers on publications. Even by female editors, like women are just not selected as often. So it really led me to want to give women more support early on, first of all, so that they could...
Natalia Robert (26:41.646)
crazy.
Natalia Robert (26:50.574)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (27:04.72)
build a business a little bit more confidently and feel like they can actually do it and like they have access to information. And I wanted to put a spotlight on women, you know, give them a platform, give them microphone over to them so that they can show people that they know what they're doing. Cause a lot of times we know what we're doing sometimes better than the guys and we just don't say it. We are not as overconfident as the men tend to be.
Natalia Robert (27:18.542)
Yeah.
Natalia Robert (27:26.094)
Woo!
Natalia Robert (27:32.91)
Yeah, yeah.
Natalia Robert (27:33.584)
So I wanted to really give support to the women so that they can get some attention and some credit too. So our Facebook group is probably what I'm proudest of because it's just this really, it's a really safe space and the women there have formed friendships. We were doing some in -person events for a while. Those will come back soon, I'm sure. But a lot of like casual gatherings where they actually become friends and stay in touch and I get photos from some of them.
Natalia Robert (27:40.366)
Mm -hmm.
Natalia Robert (28:03.216)
When they get together, they'd send me a picture. It's just kind of like letting me know that they're hanging out. And a lot of really open conversation about prices and licensing and what do you do when this happens and oh my God, my client did this or said this, what do you guys do? So it's been a really huge resource for a lot of women in the industry. So it's...
Natalia Robert (28:25.07)
So it sounds like an absolute must if you're wanting to get into working with architecture interior. Like it's, cause you're right. I don't know many who do it. And I, the resource, like you hear all other kinds of resources for photographers, but not for this. So this sounds like the place to go if you're wanting to get started. It will like give you everything you need to know to learn and then have the support along the way while you're.
Natalia Robert (28:28.72)
Yes.
Natalia Robert (28:53.326)
building your business. That's fantastic. I love it.
Natalia Robert (28:54.8)
For sure. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And I mean, even now, several years in, there still aren't a ton of resources. Like there are, you know, YouTube videos and stuff. And you can go independently, like to each photographer. Like if there's a photographer that you follow that does interior work, a lot of photographers are now opening up to offering mentorship, which I think is great. But...
as far as like a community or like a central hub for information on this type of work, there still really isn't much out there. So, and especially if you are looking for something that is women focused, because, I mean, let's face it, a lot of those online forums are harsh and they're just kind of rough to actually speak up in and ask questions. So we pride ourselves on being very different from a lot of those groups.
Natalia Robert (29:52.398)
That is so cool. Well, I will link all the information in the show notes. If you were interested in that listeners and Natalia, this was so great. Is there anything else you wanted to say or tell us about before you go? Tell people about your website, your Instagram, where they can find you. I will also link all this information in the show notes before we go.
Natalia Robert (30:13.744)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my door is always open. I'm always happy to help people guide them in a direction that's a good fit for them. We are Grove Strong. That's our website. That's our social handles. That's where you can find information. At the very least, I encourage people to follow us on Instagram. Anything that happens, we share it on there. I'm on there usually daily, like talking to people. You can get on our newsletter, but...
We are Grove Strong. That's the website and the social handles and you can find us there.
Natalia Robert (30:48.942)
Well thank you so much again for coming on. This was such a wealth of information that I had no idea about before. So thank you so much. I appreciate it, Natalia.
Natalia Robert (30:53.2)
I'm sorry.
Natalia Robert (30:58.256)
You're so welcome. Thanks for having me on. I'm always happy to share.
